Curse

AlsoSol · Apr 10, 2011, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Hello all

Was hoping to get some advice on my general build. I forgot where I found it but after some tweaks, this is what I came up with.

One of the obvious problems is energy management. I have about 40 energy (with runes, insignias and a +5e bow). I haven't any zealous bowstrings at the moment, so I can't upgrade the bow.

Damage per shot (spamming PA and SA) goes from 75 to 100 with Glass Arrows and IatS! up.

I usually take out BM skills for Pain Inverter and other PvE skills depending on the area. Otherwise, I'm levelling new pets (haven't the patience for death-levelling).

Thanks for the help.

Xenomortis · Apr 10, 2011, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Make sure Expertise hits 14 (12+1+1 or 12+2) so your 10e skills cost 4e.
Ranger energy always sucks in PvE, so you're going to have to get used to it. You may have to cut one of Sundering or Penetrating Attack.
Triple Shot is decent and is pretty energy efficient if you get a Zealous Bow.
Hunter's Shot is quick activating and only costs 5e.
I would consider dropping one of Savage and Distracting Shot.

As for an IAS, Never Rampage Alone is decent if expensive but necessitates bringing a pet. Alternatives are Tiger's Fury (or it's duplicate), Lightning Reflexes + Dwarven Stability or Drunken Master.

Amy Awien · Apr 10, 2011, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Penetrating and sundering don't profit from IAS, only regular attacks and attack skills without activation time, so IAS is not adding much and costing a boatload of energy.
That said, since you're bringing a pet, Scavenger's strike returns a fair amount of E, but requires re-statting. Being able to use attack skills more often might well compensate for the lower damage.
Another non-elite e-skill is body-shot, which requires that your team brings cracked armor.
Btw, with 7E every 24~25 seconds (0.28 E/sec) NRA is not as expensive as Dwarven Stabilty + Lightning reflexes, which costs 9E per 30 sec (0.3 E/sec) at 14 expertise (10E/30 when lower).

Xenomortis · Apr 10, 2011, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Penetrating and sundering don't profit from IAS, only regular attacks and attack skills without activation time, so IAS is not adding much and costing a boatload of energy.

Yes they do.
And do you honestly think that you won't get auto-attacks through between useage of SA and PA?
Although you're right regarding NRA vs LR+DS.

Amy Awien · Apr 10, 2011, 02:10 PM // 14:10

No, they don't, at least not before the after-cast shit (and afaik ias does not affect the after-cast). When you'd queue 1 sec attacks on each other they hit exactly one second after each other. I've tested this with machinegunner builds using Quick Shot and these two (when they were still on 3 second recharge), you'd get 20 hits in the 20 seconds of Zealous Renewal. Everytime again.

Off course, the regular attacks in between are affected by IAS, but the total effect on your firing rate is rather small - compared to the cost.

AlsoSol · Apr 10, 2011, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Thanks. Forgot to post stats. Exp is at 15 (is it work lowering to 14?), Marks is 13 and BM is 3. If I bring a pet to do damage, usually I bump BM to 9 or 10. I usually bring Scavenger's strike then.

I forgot about Triple Shot, thanks. Faction rep is a bit low, though, so might not be as effective, damage-wise.

Xenomortis · Apr 10, 2011, 02:17 PM // 14:17

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Activ...#Attack_skills

Quote:

Contrary to popular belief, this decrease in activation time also applies to attack skills with stated activation times. For example, Protector's Strike while in Frenzy activates in a staggering 1/6 of a second. This is especially useful when interrupting, since the decrease in activation time of interrupt skills makes it easier to land interrupts on faster-activating skills.

The attack times are just very short and now (apart from Quick Shot), the limiting factor on the other fast activating attack skills are the 'aftercast' delays.
If you aren't convinced, take Quick Shot and Frenzy and test in the Isle of Nameless. Quick Shot activates noticeably faster under Frenzy, but due to the recharge and the hilariously slow base attack speed you get with a bow, you will get no more attacks in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsoSol

Thanks. Forgot to post stats. Exp is at 15 (is it work lowering to 14?), Marks is 13 and BM is 3. If I bring a pet to do damage, usually I bump BM to 9 or 10. I usually bring Scavenger's strike then.

I forgot about Triple Shot, thanks. Faction rep is a bit low, though, so might not be as effective, damage-wise.

14 is fine to hit the breakpoint on the 10e skills; 15 Exp lowers the cost of 15e and 25e skills by one.
Rank on Triple Shot isn't important - all three shots will have the full benefit of Glass Arrows and any other buffs (like Order of Pain); only the base damage is lowered.

Also, try to get a 15^50 (Strength and Honor) inscription for your bow.

AlsoSol · Apr 10, 2011, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Thanks. That gives me a chance to put an Orders Necro together.

Amy Awien · Apr 10, 2011, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Activ...#Attack_skills

I don't care for wiki's, when my own tests show otherwise, my tests take precedence. It's that simple. I got 20 hits in 20 seconds - I don't care one bit about what is written elsewhere, especially not if that is based on impressions someone had when staring at his screen.

A single attack is not interesting, you're looking to chain (and thus queuing) attacks.

RenegadeSAS · Apr 10, 2011, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Got to agree with Amy Awien if your auto attacking between your skills your a bit slow attacking

Xenomortis · Apr 10, 2011, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I don't care for wiki's, when my own tests show otherwise, my tests take precedence. It's that simple. I got 20 hits in 20 seconds - I don't care one bit about what is written elsewhere, especially not if that is based on impressions someone had when staring at his screen.

A single attack is not interesting, you're looking to chain (and thus queuing) attacks.

The recharge is the limiting factor. Your test would have you go through your chain several times where the recharge would stop you from going any faster.
However, each individual attack and hence the chain would have been executed faster.
Saying there is no benefit from an IAS is false, the benefit may not just add up to much; and if you can spam fast activating attack skills with no delay, then there probably isn't too much point, but the build in the OP is definitely incapable of doing that.

Edit: If you want a better test to clearly demonstrate the effect an IAS has on attack skills with a set activation time, use Mighty Throw (which has a 3 second activation time).

Xiaquin · Apr 10, 2011, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I'd like it a lot more with energy management, and I agree with Xenomortis about dropping one of the interrupts (I'd stick with Savage). Certainly a Zealous bow with something like Triple Shot will help, and stick with 14 Expertise.

I also overlooked and agree with Amy about IAS. If you take Sundering/Penetrating, those are really fast skills. You'd certainly auto-attack faster, but both attacks recharge quickly. I would like LR if only for the blocking which comes in handy in HM, and wouldn't necessarily want DS.

If you want to try a different approach, I like Glass Arrows, Ebon Battle Standard of Honor and Needling Shot. There you could turret between interrupts while boosting your party's damage and rapid-fire everything that getts down <50% HP. Needling, Glass Arrows and a Vampiric mod will all ignore armor. Just keep in mind NS briefly disables other attacks.

AlsoSol · Apr 10, 2011, 05:24 PM // 17:24

I've tried Needling Shot before. It's a damn good skill, but when a foe is below 50% there isn't much chance to use it (the heroes I'm running with seem to spike quite well). As for Lightning Reflexes, I rarely need blocking, even in HM. I get more grief from hexes and conditions.

I need to work with Ebon Battle Standard of Honor a bit more. I've stayed away because of the energy use.

And thanks for all the help.

Haggis of Doom · Apr 10, 2011, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Instead of forgoing EBSoH, it's a good idea to look at better energy management.

People usually use Prepared Shot + Expert Focus with the Penetrating/Sundering combo, due to how energy intensive it is. Spamming those more + EBSoH > the little extra dmg Glass Arrows offers over Expert Focus.

Glass Arrows, due to the fact that it prevents the use of PrepShot and Expert Focus, is usually used with either Point Blank Shot + Zojun's Shot, or Triple Shot + Dual Shot.

IronSheik · Apr 10, 2011, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Edit: If you want a better test to clearly demonstrate the effect an IAS has on attack skills with a set activation time, use Mighty Throw (which has a 3 second activation time).

Seems you need to stick to your wiki more.

Mighty throw isn't 3 seconds.

As for OP, triple shot, drop the rupts, i'd bring dwarven stability+lightning reflexes for my IAS, body shot with outside cracked armor source is decent for my ranger for energy.

Xenomortis · Apr 10, 2011, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Seems you need to stick to your wiki more.
Mighty throw isn't 3 seconds.

Well no, the actual activation time is half that of the listed time (since the full animation for an attack interval consists of the swing/throw before the hit and the follow-through animation; the hit occurs between the two). I was consciously referring to the listed time, not the actual time. I shouldn't have done, since it didn't make sense.
Regardless, since the base animation is over a second long (or whatever the threshold is) you observe an activation bar, but under an IAS the attack is sufficiently fast for the bar not to be displayed.

Xiaquin · Apr 10, 2011, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

People usually use Prepared Shot + Expert Focus with the Penetrating/Sundering combo, due to how energy intensive it is. Spamming those more + EBSoH > the little extra dmg Glass Arrows offers over Expert Focus.

Glass Arrows, due to the fact that it prevents the use of PrepShot and Expert Focus, is usually used with either Point Blank Shot + Zojun's Shot, or Triple Shot + Dual Shot.

This was interesting to me, so I tested on the Suit of 100 Armor.

PS, EF, PA/SA, Ebsoh; took eight attacks to down it (Zealous and Vampiric strings).

I then tested GA, Triple Shot, Dual Shot, Needling and Ebsoh with a Vampiric string. Six attacks and it was down. I'd like to see other tests, but I felt more comfortable knowing that adding IAS was more helpful and, given NS has an instant recharge, the kill was far faster.

There are, of course, downsides. Needling will disrupt interrupts and requires good timing and judgment. However, energy management isn't an issue. The extra arrows TS/DS and Needling offer also make skills like Mark of Pain and Barbs more deadly. More arrows also means enchantments like Aegis don't stand up as well as they normally do, so this combination seems to have more going for it.

Haggis of Doom · Apr 10, 2011, 07:11 PM // 19:11

^Did you use NS on the PS build? I didn't mention it at all, but it's a given for most turret builds

Even with it though, I don't expect PA/SA to reach TS/DS's spiking abilities.

Otherwise, my e-management comment was mostly aimed at the OP's build, which used GA with PA/SA, causing EBSoH to be too expensive. Reading back, I think I wasn't too clear and sounded as if I stated PS > GA, while I meant -if- you use PA/SA, -then- PS > GA due to the ability to afford EBSoH.

AlsoSol · Apr 10, 2011, 07:24 PM // 19:24

I used to run a Prepared Shot build, but the recharge for Prepared Shot tended to slow things down. Is there a way of shortening that?

Looks like I need to see the Master of Damage about something.

I'm liking the idea of Triple and Dual shot spiking.

(Which is better, the armor dummies or Master of Damage in testing builds?)

Xiaquin · Apr 10, 2011, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

^Did you use NS on the PS build? I didn't mention it at all, but it's a given for most turret builds

Adding NS to PS, EF, PA, SA, Ebsoh? While it would help, I feel it becomes cumbersome to carry four attacks, especially when I'm likely carrying a hard rez. Leaves the build a bit one-dimensional.

I do understand where you are coming from though, PA/SA must have energy management, like you suggest.